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2 Peter 2, A Warning for False Teachers

January 21, 2010

In my continuing study of proof texts for hell, today we’ll examine a passage in 2 Peter 2:4.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

AHA!  See there is a hell, it’s plain and clear!  Hold up just one second and lets take a deeper look.  Remember, according to these rules, we have to take passages in context and examine every possible angle before coming to a conclusion.  So lets look at the context.  Just from scanning the chapter, we can already tell that Peter’s primary goal is to warn us about false teachers in the last days.  How do we know, well by looking at the first few verses of course:

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, andbring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. (NKJV)

Take note of the last sentence, referring to the judgment awaiting these false teachers.

for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Peter is saying that these guys too, will get their just reward.  Then he goes on to describe examples of people in the past being punished by God:

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered theminto chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing theirlawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

Before we look at the contentious verse 4, let’s examine this passage first.  The first thing I note is the pattern presented in the passage, God names a group of sinners, and follows it up with their punishment.  Lets take a look at the groups listed with their punishment:

  • Fallen Angels (sided with Lucifer) – cast down to hell (greek: tartarus)
  • People of Noah’s time (except Noah and Family) –  they were drowned in the flood.
  • Sodom and Gomorrah (Lot and family were saved) – City was turned to ashes by fire and brimstone.

The next big thing that stands out are the words “For if God…”.  One thing about if statements is there must be a then.  Sure enough, verse 9 starts of with one.  In between the If-Then, is listed the punishments, so putting the sentence together like so, we get:

For if God did not spare [fill in the blanks] 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

The main point of the above passage was meant to show that God knows how to save the righteous (using Noah and Lot as examples) and also is just in dealing with the wicked.  So Peter is like, don’t worry, those bad guys will get what is coming to them.

Now let’s look at how the Fallen Angels were punished:

the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Who:  Angels that sinned.  They were deceived and chose Lucifer and rebelled against God.

How:  They were cast down to hell and delivered into chains of darkness.

Additional info:  They are still awaiting their judgment.

Firstly, lets look at how they’re punished.  At first glance, it appears that the Angels were cast into hell and are chained up in darkness.  If we’re looking at the traditional view of hell, it would appear that they are burning and suffering as we speak.  However, that would contradict the very next phrase, because it says they’re being reserved for judgement.  Wouldn’t burning in hell be judgement enough? Something is off about this interpretation, let’s dig deeper.

The Greek used here for hell is Tataroo (Tartarus), meaning a place of restraint. God cast them down to a place of restraint.  In Greek mythology, Tartarus was the lowest hell, the place where the Titans (who rebelled against Zeus) were restrained. It is described as being as far below Hades as heaven is high above the earth. As far as we can apply Greek mythology, we can understand that these angels were cast so far down as to be out of sight. Their place of restraint was so far down that one would think they would never be able to crawl out.  This punishment corresponds with Revelation 12:

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

From the passage above we can see that the Dragon was able to take a 3rd of the stars* (angels) of heaven. Who is the dragon, verse 7 defines it for us:

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

*Stars in the Bible can denote princes, rulers, angels, and nobles of the earth. In this context we can tell that it is likely angels. For examples of stars (angels) being cast to earth, See Isaiah 14:12, Luke 18:10)

The devil and his angels were cast out of heaven to earth.  To them, losing heaven and going to this desolate barren earth must have been like hell.  So their punishment was being imprisoned on this planet.  Unfortunately for us, we have to share it with them.

Lets look at the “chains of darkness”.  The Greek word for chains, can also mean silo. To the Greek, a silo was an underground pit in which grain was stored.  Lets look at other tranlations for chains:

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; (NIV)

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; (NASB)

4 For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. (NLT)

As we can see, “hell” very much looks like a prison instead of a place of torture.  It doesn’t look like the traditional view of hell, because hell would be bright, with fires burning all over the place.  What the Bible is really saying is that this Earth is a prison for the fallen, in comparison to Heaven’s glory, and they are not allowed to leave this planet.

As we can see, Peter was literally saying that because of their sins, the fallen angels were punished for their rebellion against God, and as a consequence, were cast down to the gloomy, isolated earth, which would serve as their prison and holding place until the day of judgment.  When is the day of judgment?  After the 1000 year following Christ’s 2nd coming, as depicted in Revelation 20.  Remember, we have to let Scripture interpret itself, and not fuse our preconceived ideas into Scripture.

Additional Notes:

Just to add some clarification and extra information on some points.  I forgot that Revelation is a very confusing and symbolic book so I’d like to highlight some points in the chapter.  I don’t want to turn this into a whole Revelation seminar, but I can see where people get confused and sidetracked I’ll try to quickly clear up some things.

Two instances of Angels being cast to the earth

Revelation 12:3,4 talks about the first time Satan was cast to the earth. Although, Satan was allowed to go back to Heaven and be in the presence of God, see Job.  Verse 7 talks about a 2nd conflict, where Jesus wins the battle at the cross, as seen in verse 10-11, and now are confined to Earth.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Now to the original point that Revelation 12 refers to events in the past.

Revelation 12

1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. (NKJV)

First notice verse 1.  Where can we find a similar description in Genesis 37:9. That is the description of Joseph’s dream.  And as we know in Revelation, a woman represents a church or a spiritual group.  So connecting the 2, we can see that the woman is spiritual Israel, or God’s people.

How do we know these events happened in the past, because we know from the beginning Satan was trying to get Jesus killed because God told him that the Seed of Eve would eventually gain victory over Satan.

Genesis 3

4 So the LORD God said to the serpent:

15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

That is why Satan tried so hard to get baby Jesus killed, even before he was born.

Revelation 12:4

And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 12 clearly talks about Jesus’ birth, hence the conflict was in the past, and therefore the angels were also cast to earth long ago, and now are stuck here awaiting their punishment in Revelation 20.

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16 Comments leave one →
  1. Robert Xavier permalink
    January 21, 2010 3:26 am

    Hi Glenn, I noticed a few errors in this post.

    1. Typo

    You Wrote:

    “For if God did not PUNISH [fill in the blanks] 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,”

    But what I think you meant to say was…

    “For if God did not SPARE [fill in the blanks] 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,”

    2. Prophecy

    “The devil and his angels were cast out of heaven to earth. To them, losing heaven and going to this desolate barren earth must have been like hell. So their punishment was being imprisoned on this planet. Unfortunately for us, we have to share it with them.”

    This can not be what Peter was referring to in 2nd Peter 2:4, because in that verse, Peter lists in Chronological Order, incidents of sinners being punished by Jesus; in the PAST.

    1. Angels who Sinned
    2. Noah’s Generation
    3. Sodom & Gomorrah

    But Revelation 12 is a Prophecy of the Future.

    “7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

    Notice, verse 7 begins with the word “AND” thus linking it as a continuation of the prophecy in the previous verses. So it’s not a separate statement about the previous Angelic Rebellion.

    Also, our Planet Earth, is no prison for Fallen Angels.
    It is an amazing, beautiful & wonderful work of our Lord God Jesus.
    Why would God create us on a Prison Planet for Evil Angels..? (”.)

    My rhetorical question aside, I’ll prove it through Scripture:

    (NIV) putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
    (NLT) in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment.
    (NASB) committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
    (NKJV) delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment.

    All four versions quoted describe their prison as “Gloomy Darkness”
    Three versions quoted describe their prison as a “Dungeon Pit” & one mentions “Chains”
    Finally, all four state that they are “Reserved or Held” there, like a Prison.

    Again, our Earth is no Gloomy Dungeon Prison Pit.

    Although I do agree, they were not cast into the Pop-Culture Hell we see on TV,
    I believe 2nd Peter 2 & Revelation 12 are stating that the Evil Angels were cast deep into the Earth.

    Perhaps the Great Gulf mentioned in Luke 16:26…

    “And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'”

    Or perhaps the Bottomless Pit of Revelation 9:11…

    “And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon”

    Either way, it’s likely the same Spiritual Prison Jesus visited in…

    1st Peter 3 – 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah…

    This verse also suggests that the Spirits in Prison were the Fallen Angels of the Days of Noah.

    Anyway, I do agree with the major focus of this Note,
    that they we’re not cast down to what we today call “Hell”
    which is actually known in the Bible as the “Lake of Fire”
    but rather they were cast into Prison ::)

    • January 21, 2010 9:35 am

      Correction 1:

      Yup thanks, punishment was on my mind.

      Correction 2:

      Just some things you may not be aware of. I don’t want to turn this post into a Revelation study, as it is way beyond the scope. Revelation 12 does show that the punishment was indeed in the past, but I’ll try to quickly address it. Revelation 12 is a vision John had about the great controversy between God and Satan. So the first part was an allegory of what took place. So if I can show you that it indeed was showing events of the past as well, then we can assume that they were indeed cast down to earth, and that the EARTH is their PRISON. Like you mentioned, it was in Chronological order, the Angels were cast down before Noah, and Noah was in Genesis, so we have to look in Genesis to see if there is any evidence of that, and guess what, there is. I’ll break it down in the “additional notes” above:

    • January 21, 2010 11:40 am

      As far as the rest of your proof texts are concerned, you have to be careful when taking verses, especially one from a parable and one from Revelation. Parables and Revelation (Daniel too) are embedded with symbols and you have to be careful when interpreting them.

      In terms of Spirits in Prison, here is an excellent commentary that touches on that topic.

      http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/1159/Jesus-Spirits-Prison.htm

  2. Robert Xavier permalink
    January 21, 2010 9:26 pm

    Actually, you’re right, I don’t know how I missed the references to the past <:)
    Tired brain, I guess 😦 but now I just noticed something else that I missed.

    You mentioned the Devil & His Angels were cast down to the Earth,
    at the first Angelic Rebellion, which I believe as well, but I believe that is mentioned in the first half of Verse 4…

    "His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth…"

    But Verse 7 through 10, speaks of a Future Angelic War,
    in which they are cast down to Earth again (perhaps physically..? But perhaps not :P)

    7 "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

    Notice also, that Verse 7 through 9 is still part of the same vision,
    so it appears that the Second Angelic war (that we know of) occurs after Jesus' Birth & Resurrection.

    I believe this to be the first ever exile of the Evil Angels out of Heaven (space) to Earth,
    but prior they were only cast out of God's Heaven, but still allowed in Space or Sky..?

    • January 21, 2010 10:28 pm

      The 2nd battle was waged on earth, per se, between Christ and the Devil. Christ won on Calvary, hence verses 10-11

  3. Robert Xavier permalink
    January 21, 2010 10:58 pm

    But the vision has the 2nd Angelic Battle of verses 10 & 11
    occurring after His resurrection in verse 5.

    • January 21, 2010 11:36 pm

      Oh true. I overlooked that part. It’s probably referring to the final battle then in Revelation 20 when they rise up against the new Jerusalem. Unless its a symbolic battle. I’ll have to study Revelation further for a clear answer on that.

  4. Robert Xavier permalink
    January 23, 2010 5:25 am

    Okay, so to bring this back to the topic of 2nd Peter 2:4 & 9…

    “For if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into Chains of Darkness, to be Reserved for Judgment — then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust, Under Punishment, for the day of judgment,”

    …as it relates to 1st Peter 3:19…

    “by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
    20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering
    waited in the days of Noah…”

    since Revelation 12, verses 7 through 9, are a prophecy of a Future Angelic Battle, then the Prison where Jesus visited the spirits, isn’t the Earth as a whole, but must be a Dark & Gloomy Dungeon Pit somewhere inside the Earth, as described in 2nd Peter 2:4; which I believe to be the Spiritual Prison of the Rich Man, across the Great Gulf, from the Paradise of Lazarus by Abraham’s side in Luke 16.

    Couple this with a literal reading of 1st Samuel 28:11-15

    “11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” 13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” 14 So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?–”

    …then we get a strong idea of where we go when we die.

    Again, I agree it’s not straight to Heaven nor straight to Hell, as the media portrays.
    Rather, I believe these passages show that our Consciousness descends into the Earth, to a place of waiting, till Resurrection Day for the Righteous & Judgement Day for the Unrighteous; to Paradise or Prison.

    • January 23, 2010 9:52 am

      I linked you a commentary on 1 Peter 3:9 regarding the spirits in prison. I’m assuming you haven’t read it yet or else you wouldn’t be writing this, so here it is:

      http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/1159/Jesus-Spirits-Prison.htm

      I thought we already resolved “Samuel” was a demon impersonating him. The Dead can’t possibly prophesy dude.

      We can’t be conscious when we die. There are too many texts in the Bible contrary to your claim. So far all you have to prove that there is a separate place where people go is:

      1. A parable. Which is highly symbolic.
      2. Verses from Revelation, which is highly symbolic.

      Using simple logic, those places referred to are likely to be symbolic as well. And the Truth is, they are 🙂

  5. Robert Xavier permalink
    January 24, 2010 7:20 pm

    I did read the article… (:I)

    But it makes the same mistake you made above, in interpreting Revelation 12:7-9 as the past fall of Evil Angels, when it was actually a prophecy of a future Angelic Battle; thus the Earth as a whole is not verified by Scripture as the Dark, Gloomy, Dungeon, Prison Pit.

    Another thing I noticed, is that Jesus went to visit the Spirits In Prison, to preach the Gospel to them; implying those who accept, will be forgiven too. But if the Spirits in Prison are Demons & Fallen Angels, who are held in chains, under punishment, till judgement day; why would he bother preach the Gospel to them..?

    If they were the Evil Dead, then it would make more sense that He would preach the Gospel to them; as they can be saved.

    Also, the article cites Ezekiel’s account of the Fall of Tyre as the Fall of Satan; which it is & isn’t. What I mean is that in God’s judgement of Tyre, who’s king was possessed by the Devil himself, God reminded the Devil of how he fell from Heaven & then told him how he kingdom Tyre will be destroyed this time.

    My point is, the part that says, “I will cast you to the ground & lay you before kings,” is talking about the Devil’s fall at Tyre, because God said, “I will” not “I did” thus the ground isn’t Earth as a whole, but the literal ground; as a weak person is tossed to the ground by a strong person.

    So anyway, that’s why I didn’t accept it’s teaching that the Earth as a whole is the Spiritual Prison Jesus visited when He was dead – 1st Peter 3:19

    I did however find an interesting verse in the article, that I think helps my case, that the Prison is inside the Earth.

    Matthew 12:40 – 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Also, I didn’t accept that the Spirit of Samuel was a demon, because the Narrator (God) didn’t identify the spirit as a demon; rather identified it as Samuel. So did the witch & so did Saul, though he did not see him; and so did the highly detailed & accurate prophecy.

    Finally, I accept that when we die, and Jesus was no different, that our Spirit goes back to God, as Scripture plainly says; but I believe there is a distinction between Soul & Spirit…

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 – Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12 NKJ
    For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    I believe Spirit to be a Life Giving Force from God, which returns to God when we die; but I believe Soul to mean Consciousness, we ourselves; and from everything I’ve read, I haven’t found anything that says the Consciousness ceases to exist, only that it sleeps.

    (The following is only my guess, based on my observations above)

    So, it is possible, that when we die, our Consciousness descends into a place of waiting, perhaps in a dreamlike state; where we wait to be rejoined to our body, which is brought back to life by that Life Giving Spirit from God.

    • January 24, 2010 11:04 pm

      Robert, you seem to be forgetting the fundamental rules of interpretation, by trying to squeeze and stretch certain verses to prove your viewpoint. It should be the other way around. Your interpretation must harmonize, not contradict. Your view contradicts what the numerous verses that tell us that we are unconscious when we die. The fact is, there is no separate “soul” or “spirit”.

      In that article, it makes it clear that Jesus didn’t “preach” as translated. I’ll post the following paragraph from the article. It’s at the end, as you may have skimmed over it:

      “This brings us back to the word in I Peter 3:19 that we skipped: “proclaimed” (or in many Bibles, “preached”). Most objective commentaries will note that this word in the Greek (ekēruxen from kērússō) means in general “to be a herald,” “to proclaim,” “to announce,” “to publish,” “to preach.” Although it can be used as such, it does not necessarily mean “to preach the gospel to” or “to preach salvation to.” Because Peter does not specify what Jesus “proclaimed” or “announced,” to assume the preaching of the gospel is not warranted. The only clue we have of what He proclaimed appears in the immediate context: that He was “made alive by the Spirit.”

      If this is the case, verse 19 says simply that, after Jesus was resurrected, He ascended to heaven, proclaiming to the imprisoned [the planet, earth was their prison] evil spirits that He lived! The demons, once again, had failed!”

      That interpretation fits nicely with the rest of the Bible. Your view contradicts it.

      As far as some of the proof texts you just brought up. Matthew 12:40, “heart of the earth”. You have to understand that we can’t take expressions literally. We gotta look at the entire context. We know that it wasnt talking about Jesus’s death, why? Because how many nights was Jesus dead? TWO NIGHTS (Friday, Sabbath). Matt 12:40 talks about Three Days and THREE NIGHTS.

      So what is this verse referring to?

      In Matthew 12:40, the word “heart” comes from the Greek word “kardia,” which is how we get the word “cardiac.”

      According to Strong’s concordance, the word “kardia” means: the heart, i.e., the thoughts or feelings [mind]; also the middle.

      The Greek word for earth is “ge” [pronounced ghay]. It means: soil; a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application)-country, ground, land, world.

      So the phrase “in the heart of the earth” can easily be translated “in the midst of the world,” or in the grip of this lost planet Jesus came to save.

      In other words, the Lord was telling His disciples in Matthew 12:40 that as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man would be in the heart of the earth. Notice that Jonah was not stationary in the great fish, as with a dead person in a tomb. He was at the mercy of the fish, moving where the fish took him.

      Same as Jesus, who was a captive of the devil. For those 3 days leading up to the Crucifixion, He was completely in the control of a demon-inspired mob that took Him from place to place, heaping abuse, insult, and physical punishment on Him. When He suffered the punishment and penalty for our sins, He was “in the heart,” or in the midst, of this lost world.

  6. Robert Xavier permalink
    January 25, 2010 3:31 pm

    Okay 🙂 I need to retreat again 😉

    I keep jumping back & forth, between points,
    without having settled any of them to both our satisfaction.

    I think I should stop addressing each point as they come up for us,
    rather I should complete my Study in my Facebook Notes;
    then we can review a complete overview of my understanding.

    I’ll link you in a few days 😉

    Probably, Friday Morning ::)

    • January 25, 2010 4:26 pm

      🙂 Take your time. Make sure you got it all down. So after whittling down all those texts thrown at me, and from judging by the arguments you still use, my understanding of your position is this, correct me if I’m wrong:

      1. You accept the concept of a separate soul (entity or consciousness), which is drawn heavily from Egyptian & Greek mythology, the same civilizations that worship multiple gods (hint: the teaching didn’t originate in the Bible).

      2. As proof, you cite that the “spirit” of Samuel was indeed Samuel’s soul/spirit, so therefore you believe that the dead have the gift of prophesy.

      Also, accursed witches have the power/gift to call down spirits from heaven. (Why won’t God give me that gift? I’d like to talk to my grandparents IF that were the case.)

      3. You believe in a “waiting place” that the dead go to, as demonstrated in the parable of Luke 16, and some verses in Revelation, in spite of the fact that the parable and Revelation are full of symbols and caution should be exercised when taking a concept literally.

      Just making sure 🙂

  7. January 26, 2010 3:42 pm

    There are many symbolic things in the parable stories of Jesus. Lamps, oil, virgins, seeds, etc. all are real and they mean something to the average fishman that Jesus spoke to in his sermons. My question is this: What is real and what is not real in Luke 16 parable of Lazarus and the Rich man? Is Abraham real? Was Lazarus real? Are flames in hell real? Do angels carry people away to be with Abraham?

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